Ankle Update, Feb 2021

This below clip is a little outtake from last night's session. The angle iron was a tad sticky. Didn’t go fast enough/lean back far enough to compensate. Front end dipped down. I stepped-off onto the bad ankle...and down I go.

Almost two years after the initial broken bone, after two surgeries, after almost a year back on the board, and after significant recovery, my front ankle STILL betrays me on occasions...and sometimes even on very simple/low impact things such as this little 5-0 grind. I never know when it’s going to happen. 

Fortunately, this doesn’t occur nearly as often as before, and when it does, my ankle doesn’t hurt nearly as bad. Things like this used to be a session-ender. Now I just get up and keep going. That’s awesome. The pads continue to be a real life-saver when it does happen, because I usually go down straight to my knee (sound on to hear the plastic scrape). I don’t foresee loosing those anytime in the near future—it’s just not a game of Russian roulette I want to play with my kneecaps, because eventually I will loose in a serious way. It's just not worth it. 

 

The other major improvement is that I can now control my falls much better than before—I don’t go down nearly as hard. That’s also great news. So, despite occasional floundering, my ankle doing pretty good. 

Keep pushing...I certainly am. 

Diminish, Fade, and Wither: The Inspiring Delcline of Tony Hawk

I am an old, broken, skateboarder. My balance is not what it once was. I don’t react as fast as I used to. I don’t heal as quickly as before. Every year skateboarding becomes harder. Every year I become more susceptible to injury. I like my pads a hell of a lot more than I used to. These are hard facts of biology, time, age, and life.

Recently Tony Hawk posted about his recent struggles doing a 720. A trick he invented long ago. He said he could not spin them as fast anymore. He said previous attempts ended badly and did not inspire confidence. He said they were much harder now. He battled it for awhile, pulled one, and said he may never do it again. Albeit vastly different scales, these battles are ones many of us already know quite well. I certainly do. They are also battles EVERY skateboarder WILL know, provided they stick with it long enough. There is no escape.

It’s not often someone in skateboarding, especially someone at Hawk’s level, openly talks about (and shows) the impact of aging. It’s almost unimaginable to hear TONY HAWK talk about battles with CONFIDENCE. Hearing and seeing his own battles with declining skill and ability certainly make our own battles with the same that much more universal and...humanizing.

Much respect for making that 720, Tony. But even more respect for the honest vulnerability. Every session is a gift. It won’t last forever...and even Tony Hawk knows that.

We diminish. We fade. We wither. And that, at least to me, is a gift. The impermanence of it all is what makes it so special. It’s what makes it so hard to take anything for granted, and what reveals how profound the simple really is (and I’m not talking about just skateboarding here). As I knowingly roll into my own twilight, I do so with a gratitude brighter than a thousand Suns.

Hawk, battling to land a 720, one last time.

Well, My Arm Isn't Broken...(2021 is off and running)

Well, 2021 is off to an interesting start. On Jan 4th I badly hyper extended my elbow. I gave it a few days to see how it was doing, but started to think it might be broken???? However, I had to hold off on going to the doctors. Why? Well, I got Covid. Fortunately it was not a very bad case. That said, almost three weeks after the first Covid symptoms appeared, I still have ZERO taste or smell.

Once out of quarantine I was able to see the doctor about my elbow. X-Ray showed no break. That is good, but almost a month later it still hurts in some situations. The Dr. said to come back in 2-3 weeks if it’s still causing some problems. I have a feeling it will be.

Just as I was again feeling almost 100% post-Covid (aside from no taste/smell), and ready to do some mellow skating again (with an elbow pad on bad arm), the weather took a turn for the worst. We are in the middle of a bad cold snap right now. It is currently 10 degrees outside. Wind-chill is well below zero. The cold is supposed to end in two days, to be immediately followed by a large snowstorm. By the time I am back on the board it will be over a month since I last skated (and will probably still have the elbow injury when I start rolling again). That sucks.

Big Wheels Might be a Big Problem (or Don't Let the Past Ruin Your Present)

Often people who cling to sentimental notions of the past do not realize how much their set-up is actually holding them back (especially when deck/truck/wheel ratios are WAY off). This is not only true for those wrapped up in nostalgia, but those who may not be aware about the so-called "proper" ratios of a modern skateboard. I say it all the time, but equipment evolved FOR A REASON. Below is a post someone made on Facebook after they had serious equipment epiphany. I am not, by any means, saying there is a "correct" way to set-up your skateboard. There simply isn't. That said, there are consequences to the way your board is configured. Some may not be fully aware of those consequences. Thus, I am ONLY trying to share information, which may make for happier skateboarding. 

__________________

“Since returning to skating after several years off, I have been focused on getting back
everything I used to be able to do, within reason (which was not much to begin with). I then hit a plateau, and stopped progressing. Most of it was admittedly out of fear of getting hurt, but the rest was centered around never feeling stable and balanced on my board. I always felt like I was going to tip over and fall off. I couldn't get my wheels over the coping to grind because I felt like I was going to fall off. I couldn't roll-in because I always felt like I was going to fall off. I couldn't ollie because I would actually fall off every time I bent my knees.

It was miserable. I went skating every day this week. Each time, instead of feeling better afterwards like skating always does to me, I felt increasingly depressed. When I got home from the park yesterday, I was pretty much disgusted with myself. I made a sandwich, cracked open a beer, put on some sweats, and sat in my recliner, moping over the fact that I am a washed-up has-been, and generally being whiney. I was blaming it on my weight, my age, my joints, etc.

Then as I was watching a show on TV, something was mentioned about fulcrums, levers, and pivot points, and, my brain exploded...my board is too tall.

I am constantly analyzing, engineering, and tweaking things to make them work better in pretty much all aspects of my life. In skating, I am always trying new equipment and changing combinations, to find that optimum configuration.* A lot of times it is just me doing retail therapy to compensate for sucking, but sometimes I find something useful.

I love innovation, but sometimes I get stuck in the Old Man mindset where I have false assumptions that everything from “my time” was better. I realized that while I have a modern board, my configuration was completely stuck in the 1980s; my wheels, trucks, and boards...all huge.

There was a logic behind it: Tall wheels go faster and are easier to get over coping, sidewalk cracks, rocks, and other obstacles. Wider wheels have more surface area. Wider trucks and boards offer a more stable platform and turn easier. But there is a tradeoff. All of that big tall Monster Truck mentality has side effects. Besides the instability just rolling, I was having muscle injuries in my pushing leg, because I couldn't get that foot to make solid contact with the ground. I was hitting every push with the toes, and that was causing a chain reaction strain from my Achilles to my thigh.

So, today I went to my local skate shop, and bought a new set of wheels; the smallest wheels I have ever owned. I drove to the skate park, broke out the tools, and stripped my board down. I took my riser pads off, and switched my wheels from 60mm to 54mm.

I hopped on my board to take a test run, and it was literally night and day. I instantly felt completely stable and in complete control of my board. Instead of constantly feeling like I was falling off, I felt like it was glued to my feet. I was instantly going 2x faster, doing ollies, grinding, and generally just playing catch-up for the last two months.

The Lesson: I was completely stuck buying top of the line stuff, but always top of the line Retro Reissue stuff. I kept subconsciously equating anything “smaller wheels” with the early 90s "bearing cover" wheels. I knew there was a difference those and modern “small” wheels (e.g. under 60mm), but I just couldn't get it through my head that I can still skate AND use modern equipment, let alone that I would actually be able to skate better. So, don't let yourself get stuck in a rut because you have "always done it this way." You might only be diminishing your own ability.”

*Be careful falling too far down this rabbit hole. Yes, an 8.75” deck with Indy 159s and 56mm wheels is going to ride VERY different than an 8.0” deck with titanium Thunder 147s and 50mm wheels. Getting into extremely minor equipment tweaks (e.g. 52mm vs. 53mm tall trucks) will often lead you to an OCD-induced madness without any real substantive performance benefits.

Popsicles v. Shaped-Decks

 
This article was written by someone who religiously rode shaped boards, and then decided to give popsicles a try. His analysis is below. It is worth a read.

[I did not write this article, Kyle DuVall did. I wanted to link his blog post to someone on Facebook, but it seems something has gone askew with the Blogger formatting on Kyle's post (I see white typeface on a white background when I view it). Hence, I copied and pasted the text here for easy reading.]

The Popsicle Experiment
December 7, 2015
By Kyle DuVall

For the last two years I have been one of the thousands of skaters who has embraced alternate skate deck shapes. I've ridden shovel heads, punk points, curvaceous, wide bodied hybrids like the Street Plant Street axe, and I’ve had custom shapes made to my own specs, The whole time I've been pretty vocal about how these shapes can be more than just nostalgic, stylistic affectations.

About 3 months ago, for the first time in 2 years, I set up my first popsicle deck. It was my attempt to come full circle with all my experimentations, and see how my perceived preferences stood up against the baseline of modern skateboarding.

Even in light of all of my shape advocacy, I would be lying if I said that I didn’t notice immediate advantages with the popsicle. There are good reasons to ride a standard shape, just as there are good reasons to ride a well-designed alternate shape. Teasing out what advantages come from the actual popsicle shape and which come from other factors like a shift in wheelbase size and width is a more subtle matter.

For my return to the standard shape, I doubled down and went with a Chinese-produced, mass manufactured deck: an Almost Chris Haslam resin 7 model with a 8.38” width with a 14.25” wheelbase. I picked Almost because a friend of mine, who has a tendency to snap decks as if they were the proverbial popsicles of the shape’s name, has been extremely lucky with their wood, and the dimensions and slightly blunter contours on Haslam’s model seemed ideal.

At the heart of my popsicle experience was a healthy drop in the length of the wheelbase I was riding.

A number of designers, brands and retailers have created their own recommendations for matching wheelbase sizes with riders, recommendations I have, in true skate anarchist fashion, usually ignored (I’M NOT GONNA LET THE MAN TELL ME WHAT WHEELBASE I SHOULD RIDE!!). I have been riding 14.75” to 15’ wheelbases for the last couple of years. The Haslam’s 14.25 wheelbase size actually lines up with the wheelbase I am ‘supposed” to be riding according to most of these recommendations.

Knocking half an inch off the WB changed the whole dynamic of how my front foot slid and how my back leg compressed in an ollie. When I ollied the Haslam, the tail of the board sucked right up against my feet as my rear knees bent, giving a very controlled, very level and snappy ollie. This effect improved my ollie even more once I altered my front foot slide to actually scrape beyond the front bolts and partially into the nose, a technique a lot of guys who learned to ollie on the tiny-nosed decks of the 80s, have neglected to learn. All in all, the shorter wheelbase (in combination with a shorter and more rounded tail, more on that later) had me popping ollies higher, in a shorter arc. The advantage on ledges and in popping off skatepark banks was dramatic.

Of course, you could put a short wheelbase on a shaped deck and gain some of these advantages, but very few brands offer shapes in the smaller wheelbases. Finding a stock 14.25” shaped deck is almost impossible and 14.5” is very rare. If there is one thing I have learned from my switch up it is that a lot of guys who love riding the shapes may be ill-served by the long wheelbases that come with them, especially if they are street skating. Brands might do well to branch out with their shaped deck designs.

The shape and the dimensions of my popsicle’s tail also played a role in that new snappier pop. The Almost Haslam had a 6.5” inch tail with the standard rounded shape. I’ve been riding 6.75 and 7 tails. The shorter tail definitely let me channel more power straight down much easier, this combined with the short wheelbase meant I could place my front foot farther up the board and still pop a good ollie. On a small wheelbase with a short tail, you can pop an ollie with the edge of your front foot practically touching the mounting bolts. This translates to much more stability setting up for a trick, and it makes it much easier to set up for the next ollie in a line. In a park setting it means there is a lot less sliding your foot around to adjust from pumping down a transition and popping an ollie on a pyramid or to a ledge. On the street course at the skatepark, the popsicle, or at least, the snappy tail and reduced wheelbase of that popsicle, was supreme.

The signature round shape of the tail can be a mixed blessing. The round tail design of the modern popsicle is designed for instability. Applying pressure to the rounded corners will essentially tip your board sideways, a motion at the heart of a lot of flip tricks. In fact, on the modern popsicle, the rotation of a kickflip or 360 flip comes just as much from the pressure of the back foot as it does the flick of the front foot. In the case of the modern 360 flip, the back foot “scoop” is often doing most of the real work. Once again, a lot of guys who struggled to nail kickflips and tre flips on the long-flat tailed decks of the late eighties find themselves stymied when it comes to getting the proper rotation on a popsicle. That's because, on those old tanks, the front foot was the engine that drove the flip. Apply the that technique to modern pop and chances are you will never get enough leverage in your pop to get off the ground, or at best, you will get a clumsily executed “rocket” flip. Kickflips on a popsicle are essentially a completely different trick than the flips we learned on fat boards in the 1980s.

Since the popsicle tail is basically built to tip, it means to get the most stability and pop on a plain old run of the mill ollie, foot placement on the tail must be more precise. If your foot is not well balanced and centered on the tail, the deck is going to pull sideways in one direction and tip a bit, meaning you will lose a lot of the power you are trying to put in your ollie and lose a lot of control as well. A flat, square-cornered tail shape, however, means you can apply pressure out of the “sweet spot” in the tail and still get a fairly solid, stable ollie.

Of course, even on a square tail you are going to pop better when you apply pressure to just the right spot in the center of the tail. One advantage of the rounded popsicle tail is that it essentially forces you to make sure you are always centered in your pop. It is a sort of conditioning tool in a way. You may start out less consistent on a popsicle tail, but the ollies you do will be cleaner and higher. The difference is a matter of consistency and on-demand stability versus versatility, improved vertical pop and the potential for cleaner flip tricks. There really is no “better” option. It's your call in accordance with your own style.

Another point of contention with modern decks is their durability. Veteran skaters often swear up and down that “they don’t make 'em like they used to” and single out Chinese production decks as especially suspect. On the whole, my Chinese popsicle took a pretty good beating and maintained a pretty good bit of elasticity and pop right up until the end. In terms of the longevity of aforementioned pop, the Almost Haslam certainly couldn’t compare with the eternal stiff snap of a workshop board like a Fickle deck, but it certainly stayed snappy up to the point where tail wear and other factors made a deck change necessary anyway.

The final verdict on this experiment: mixed.

I am definitely dropping my wheelbase from now on. Although the 14.25” size was definitely not optimal for bowl riding, splitting the difference and bumping up to a 14.5” wheelbase might work out well. A shorter tail than the 6.75” I have been riding is definitely better for me, although I’m thinking a squared 6.5” tail may be my best strategy. It's possible a square shape with a short length will mediate stability with the increased power the better leverage of the shortened tail gives me. The popsicle experience has certainly made me more wary of “punk point” noses. Nothing beats having a full sized nose, not just for nose slides and other ledge tricks, but also for ollies and, yes, even slappies. Cutting a 3rd of the real estate off your nose off just to get a “punk” look to your shape is not worth it. I’ll look more “punk” locking better backside slappies and more properly tweaked ollies. I think the Grosso-style “shovel’ nose is the way to go for me.

The big take-away from it all: ride what you like, but don’t write anything off you haven’t tried in a while. “Just because everyone else does” is no reason to ride a standard shape. Then again, it's no reason NOT to ride one either.

[Now that you've read about modern technology with decks, here is another article about wheels and deck height!]

The Secret "defect" of Thunder Trucks (and why your nose/tailslides may be suffereing)

 

(I apologize for some weird font/text formatting issues on this post, and for the misspelling of "axle" in the first photo!) 

What you are about to read may forever change the way you view Thunder trucks. Depending on who you ask Thunder trucks may, or may not, have a "serious design flaw." Moreover, this flaw may impact your nose and tail slides. If you ride Thunders and you read the rest of this blog post, from this point forward, any time you “catch” on a nose or tailslide, you might forever be doubting your equipment. Once you “see” this design "flaw," it cannot be unseen.
 
If you ask me, I say there absolutely IS a design flaw. Just what is this flaw? It is related to the length of the base plate that sticks out beyond the outer most mounting holes/bolts (and the position of the axle in relation to that). And yes, that simple little issue may be fucking-up your nose/tails slides, but more on that later. While this design issue is commonly known among hardcore skate tech nerds, it isn’t as common knowledge among those who aren’t super fussy about their equipment. However, that does not mean the "problem" goes away if you are unaware of it.
 
For starters, let’s look at this tracing of an Independent and Thunder baseplate.

 

There are two significant things to note here. First, is that Thunder baseplates sit further inward on your deck than Indys. Conversely, Indy baseplates stick further outward towards the nose/tail than Thunders do. See that “Note this difference” arrow? That is distance that Thunders are “shorter” than Indys. The second significant thing to note is where the axle sits in relationship to the baseplate. The red lines marked “center of axle” are (duh) where the center of the axle (on the hanger) sits over the baseplate. Note that Indy axles are closer to the center of the board than Thunders. Nothing of surprise here. Indys have a shorter wheelbase than Thunders, so it makes sense that Indys would have an axle closer to the center of the deck (and Thunders would be further out). Now, where all of this gets interesting is what happens when put wheels on your trucks...and then try doing a nose/tailslide.
 
Let’s start with Indys. When you do a nose or tailslide with Indys, the outermost end of the baseplate “grinds” along the vertical edge of what you are sliding, and the wheels do not come in contact with that same vertical edge. The reason the wheels do not contact the edge is because the baseplate sticks out further than the wheels do. I think you may now see where all this is leading to. With Thunders the opposite is true. Thunders have a “shorter” baseplate than Indys. Moreover, the axle (and thus the wheels) sits further toward the end of that baseplate. So, when you do a nose/tail slide with Thunders, the baseplate often never touches the vertical edge you are sliding on, but the wheels do. These two photos will help visualize the difference (both trucks have the same set of 53mm Spitfires on them).
 
Indys. The baseplate touches the “ledge,” but the wheels are free and clear.

 

 

Thunders. The baseplate does NOT touch the "ledge," but the wheels rub against it. 

Thus, there is a much greater chance to “stick” when doing nose/tail slides on Thunders because the wheels will “catch.” Ben Degros also often mentions this issue on his (fantastic) YouTube channel when talking about Thunder trucks (as can be seen in this video around the 2:47min mark). It's also commonly discussed on the SLAP Forum. Now, this is not to say that nose/tailslides are impossible with Thunder trucks. Clearly such a claim would be demonstrably false. But what it does mean is that (a) you probably need a lot more wax to compensate for “catching wheels” if you’re running Thunder trucks, (b) your margin of error is much thinner, and (c) nose/tails slides on Thunders are often more akin to a power slide (e.g. wheels rubbing) than on any other brand of trucks. Next time you are at a park, and you see someone over-waxing the fuck out of a ledge for nose/tail slides, look what trucks they have. Usually it is Thunder skaters that are doing this, and the reason why should now be obvious. Of course, the secondary problem with this is getting too much wax residue on your wheels (sketchy landings), and pissing everyone else off at the park who doesn’t want turboclown amounts of wax on a ledge to compensate for a poorly designed truck (e.g. Thunders). Further, Thunders are the only truck on the market (that I am aware of) that have this “problem.” Indy, Ace, Venture, Krux, etc. all have baseplates that stick-out beyond the wheels. Only Thunder has “catching wheel syndrome.” When something is designed radically different than every other product on the market, that often says something. Sometimes it's good. Sometimes it's bad. Here, I side with the latter.   

All of this I find very disheartening. Deluxe is such a rad company. I just wish they could make trucks as good as everything else they do.* Until then, I am stuck on Indys…they nose slide great!

*For some reason DLX can not figure out how to make a proper baseplates. Everything else they do is top-notch. Their baseplates, however, leave me utterly confused. The Thunder problem is explained above. Ventures have that inane design where the outer most mounting holes are so far under the hanger that it is next to impossible to get anything but a combination wrench on the mounting hardware. Absurd. What is going over at DLX that they can rule at everything else, but are still producing nearly XR-2 level baseplates?

POST-SCRIPT: Here is another example that shows how much of an "outlier" Thunder baseplates are. Here is a Thunder truck, and an industry standard shock-pad. Look at how much the shock pad sticks out beyond the baseplate when the holes are lined-up. This does not happen on any other truck, only Thunders. Any other truck, and the end of the baseplate and the shock pad (or riser) would be almost flush.

Knee Gasket Reviews: Killer 187 & Old Bones Therapy

Killer 187 & Old Bones Therapy Knee Gasket Review

This post is a review of both Old Bones Therapy and Killer 187 knee gaskets. 

Disclaimer: I am not associated with either of these companies in any way, shape, or manner.

First, why would one want a knee gasket? They basically serve five purposes. First, is to add some compression support to the knee area. Second, is to add a touch of padding to prevent against simple abrasion if don’t want to wear full-on kneepads. Third, if worn with kneepads, they can help prevent the pads from slipping down during knee slides. Fourth, if worn with kneepads, they can add a bit more padding around the kneecap area. Last, when worn with kneepads, gaskets help keep the pads from getting too nasty because the (easily washable) gasket will soak-up most of your sweat, rather it going directly into your pads. I wear my gaskets (with kneepads) for reasons three (3) through five (5). 

Note: Lots of pics at the very end of this post. 

Killer 187s

 I’ll start the review(s) with the Killer 187 gaskets. I’ve had these much longer than my Old Bones, so I have a longer-term perspective with this product. Killer 187s make the following claims about their gaskets;

 - Curved ergonomic design 
- Thick padding surrounds the patella 
- Two layers of neoprene encase 
- Super absorbent EVA foam 
- Ventilated mesh sewn in for breathability on back of knee 
- Non-irritating side seams for comfort 
- Top and bottom stitching for durability

All of these claims hold true. Additional comments are that these gaskets are thick (but not too thick), and they have a good amount of padding around the kneecap area, including the patella tendon area. They fit snuggly (and neoprene can be rather warm/hot, esp. in summer). Some many not like the snug fit as much, other might (esp. if you’re going for compression support). That said, no knee gasket should fit loosely, as that would defeat almost any reason for wearing one.

I have found two drawbacks to my 187s. First, they seem a little “short.” By that, I mean that I’d like the overall length of the sleeve to be a bit longer. They certainly cover the entire contact-area of my kneepad, but just barely, and a tad longer would be better. Second, and this might be a big one for some people, is the stitching on the back of the gasket that connects the neoprene and the ventilated mesh. On mine, that stitching started to fail not longer after I got them. This might have been because, when I first got them, I was pulling them up from the top when putting them on, which is the incorrect method. I should have been “rolling” them a bit more. In any event, I reinforced these areas (sewing them up with waxed dental floss). I have not had any problem since. Would this problem have happened if I had been properly putting the gaskets on? Who knows. We’ll find out if/when I get my next pair.  

In the end, the 187s knee gaskets are a good product. I’ve had mine for a few years now. They’ve gotten good use, and have otherwise help up. They definitely make my kneepads feel a bit beefier, they have never slipped down, and they do a great job keeping sweat out of my pads due to the thick-ish neoprene. $45.00 for a set. 

2021 FOLLOW-UP: My 187s finally died. They served a good long life, and I got plenty of use out of them. I got another pair, and unlike the previous ones, I was bit more careful with how I put them on. I have had no problem with the stitching like I did with the previous set.   

 Old Bones Therapy

Next, we move on Old Bones Therapy (OBT). This company seems to have a very dedicated (almost cult-ish??) following. I had some money to burn, and I love trying out new skate gear, so I decided to give these a-go to see what all the hype was about. The owner(???) often posts on social media circles I run in, and he even offered a standing discount code to one of the groups I’m in. That is really cool. Direct involvement with the community is a big plus in my book. Their products are targeted at the older crowd, which is also, well, “my people,” so that resonates, too. To these ends, Old Bones had some “pluses” going for me before I ever even had product in my hand. 

Let’s take a look at some of the claims made by OBT on their web site about their knee gasket. I am not going to cut and paste all of it here. You can read that material on the product description page, which can be found here.

The OBT gasket is notably different from the 187s on several fronts. First, they are much longer than the 187s. Too long, IMHO.  They extend far up my thigh, and far down my shin. Wearing them, at least for me, makes it feel like there is HUGE knee pad on my leg, which covers the my upper leg, knee, and part of my calf. I'm not really a fan of that.  Second, the OBTs are not made of neoprene. They are made of some type of  “breathable knitted fabric.” The OBTs are thinner, and more “light weight” than the 187s. These don’t feel quite as “snug” or “tight” as the 187s, and that’s a good thing (for me). I am curious to see how the fabric holds-up over time. Will it loose its stretch? Will it wear out? I’ve not heard of anyone reporting this happening. Time will tell. I’m also curious to see how the OBTs do with keeping sweat away from my kneepads. I got mt OBTs in Fall 2020, so I won’t be able to really test that one out until summer 2021 (when it’s really hot again). OBTs also have these really cool anti-slip “nobs” at the top of the gaskets to help keep them in place. The OBTs do not have as much padding around the side area of the kneecap as 187s do. They also do not have any padding directly over the center of the kneecap (187s have a small layer of padding over this spot, but not much). This is the one drawback of OBTs for me. I wish they added a bit more padding in these spots. The one other “drawback” of the OBTs is that since they are made of fabric, if it gets near Velcro (which is common on others skate pads), the OBT fabric can get “stuck” to the Velcro. As soon as I realized this was an issue, I’ve been careful to keep the OBTs away from the Velcro on my other pads. I don’t want to find out if repeated “separations” will cause any structural integrity issues to the OBT fabric (as is often the case when fabric gets repeatedly stuck to Velcro).

I like the OBTs. I just wish they (1) were a tad shorter, and (b) had that extra bit of padding over/around the kneecap area. Once I have put substantial, heavy, long-term use on the OBTs, I will post a follow-up about their longer-term durability.  $25 each (or $45 for both).

So, which product is better? That depends on what you are looking for. Want a gasket that adds some padding? Go for 187s. Want a gasket that provides compression support to a larger area of your leg, is lighter, has an awesome fit, and is from a company that has great community outreach? Then OBT is your clear choice. Also, if you’re just looking for general knee support, with long wear times, you’re better off with the OBT, because they are bit more breathable, comfortable, and cover a larger area. That said, I have often seen claims about OBT that basically sound like, "I had all four my limbs severed in a car accident, and I started wearing OBT knee-gaskets on my severed legs, and now I can skate like I'm 18-years-old again!" It seems a lot of people credit OBT with some magic rejuvination ability. It's a just knee gasket. It's not going to make you walk on water. I read all those "cult" claims with a huge grain of salt. You should, too.   

And very last, and this probably a bit petty in the grand scheme of things...the OBTs are just really bad-ass looking. Great color scheme and design. They did a great job with these things. Oh, OBT comes with cool stickers, too. Who doesn’t like stickers?!?

2022 FOLLOW-UP: Well, I've now had my OBTs for awhile. They are still going strong. They have stretched out a bit (making them even longer than before), which I still not really a fan of. Otherwise, they have held-up very well (much better than my 187 gaskets for that matter), and do everything a knee-gasket should. I still wish they had a bit more padding the knee area, however (like 187s do). Old Bones Therapy is an unquestionably rad company, that does a lot to directly support and communicate with the community. I am certainly proud to give them my support and endorsement.

As you can see, the OBT gaskets are much longer than the 187s.

Back side of them.

ALL of the gray area on the 187 (right) is padded.

Knee padding when gaskets turned inside-out.

The anti-slip part of the OBT gasket.

The stitching I had to redo on the 187s.

Here you can see the 187 gasket just barely extends beyond my PD knee pads.

The OBT gasket covers much more of your leg above and below knee pads.