Ace AF1Trucks (and Thunders Rerevisited)

Yesterday I tried out the new Ace AF1 trucks. While they made some minor improvements over the previous generation, I just didn’t like them. Towards the end of the session I remembered the set of Thunder Hollow Lights that were in the back of my car (kept there to give away to some kid with a shitty set-up). When I tried those out before, I had never taken them to a good “slappy curb.” Since I was currently at one, I decided to throw them on my board give them try (and give myself a reminder about Thunder trucks). Holy hell. Those. Things. Are. Horrible. Despite having softer 91a Bones Bushings in the trucks they just do not turn. At all. It’s like being stuck on a monorail. No soul. No joy. No fun. These two truck experiments clearly solidified the fact (which I already knew) that I am just an Indy guy, and always will be.

Pain Isn't the Problem. Injury is.

Here we go, again. 

 

Well, I am out of commission for a short bit. Yesterday I went to the park to skate a 5' mini ramp. I was getting warmed-up on a little 2' quarter pipe. On my fifth warm-up trick (a b/s disaster), I slid-out. My kneecap went straight to the coping. Session over. Swelling, bruising, and limping. I'm now off the board for a few days because of it. I hadn't put pads on yet (for the 5' ramp) because I wasn't yet "skating seriously enough to need them." How laughable is that? Irony always wins in the end.

 

Upon knee/coping impact I had an, "OK, I am fuckin' DONE with this" moment that is best summed up in this paraphrased comment by an Internet friend.

 

"I am not too concerned about pain, or getting hurt. What I am concerned about is injury, because that means I can't do things I care about (like skating). I wear pads all the time. I don't mind taking the extra time, and maybe even looking a bit silly, if means I don't have to sit on the sidelines for days/weeks as my body heals from something that was easily preventable. I want to skate, not wait to skate."

 

I've been skating for over 30 years. I know more than anyone that injury is inescapable. That said, at 47-years-old, I now have greater desire to mitigate those inevitable injuries. What galls me the most about this particular one is how utterly avoidable and unnecessary it was. Slip on the knee pads, and I would be skating instead of typing right now. I think because (a) this was such a simple/dumb injury, (b) that was 100% preventable, (c) on such a small ramp, (d) on such an easy trick, (e) that occurred moments before I was about to put my pads on (for a bigger ramp), that it actually shines a much brighter light on the larger issue.

 

All this said, I already rock pads more than most skaters. And after yesterday, I think I might start rocking them even more in the future, even when I am "not skating seriously enough to need them." I'm kind of "done" with these small, stupid injuries that could absolutely be avoided. Not like I haven't written about this exact issue before. This time feels a bit different, however. Time will tell. My proclivity to act against my own self-interest, at times, seems to have no bounds. 

 

 

 

 

The Vans Redesign: First Impressions

Vans recently discontinued their "Pro" line, and rebranded it as the "Skate" line. Moreover, they made a few design changes in their shoes for the relaunch (I won't go into/list-off all the details about the specific changes, just go look at the Vans web site).

I skate in the Old-School "pros" and the SK8-HIs "pros." I recently got a pair of the new SK8-HIs about two weeks ago. Normally when I get a new pair of shoes, I wear them for about two weeks before I even step on a board with them because I despise the feel of very "new" shoes on a my board. So, I have not even skated in these yet. That said, here are my initial reaction(s) to them. So far, most of it is negative.

(1) They are hot. Much hotter than the Pros. My feet are roasting. 

(2)  The tongue does not move, at all, because of the newly added internal tongue straps. This is good, because I hated how the tongue would always slip around on the older versions. This also makes them much harder to put on/take off.

(3) I still have some pressure points around the little toe on one shoe. This never happened before with the Pros.

(4) Two weeks in and they still feel quite stiff, as in, not broken-in at all. Around two weeks is when I would normally start considering skating in the Pros. These do not feel like they are anywhere near "ready" yet. What that means long term remains to be seen. Further on this point, Vans always felt "comfy" to me, almost out of the box. These have not yet reached that state. When I got home from work last night I was dying to take them off. That never happened before with the Pros.

APRIL 4, 2021:  FIRST STREET SESSION

Despite the SK8-HIs not feeling "ready" yet, I took them for a quick session today. I realized after about 10 min of skating that while these are not "broken in" yet, that they may never feel "ready" in the same sense the Pros did--and this is simply because the Skate version is an overall stiffer shoe. I made some peace with that, and just went on skating. There were three distinct things I noticed.

First, board feel is NOT the same. Pros def have the advantage on this. It's not like wearing cupsoles or anything, but it's not the board feel I loved about Vans.

Second, pop was much more crisp. This was a really interesting one, that took me a bit to figure out what I thought was going on here. But when I did, it made perfect sense. So, Pros are more flexible than the Skate line, which is stiffer. So, imagine running in sand, or trying to ollie on grass. Think about how much power/energy gets lost when you push-off/ollie, because the energy gets dissipated into the sand/grass. Now think about running/ollieing on hard concrete. You get a much more explosive run/ollie, because not as much energy is lost. To me, it seemed like this analogy was like Pros vs. Skate line. With the Skate line being stiffer, it felt like more direct power was transferred into my ollies/noilles, and as a result, the pop was much more crisp and responsive. The trade off, of course, is board feel. I'm really curious to see if anyone else notices this "crisp pop" phenomena, or if it was just in my head.

Third, the comfy factory (mentioned above) still isn't there. I skated for about 30 min, and afterwards I was really like, "Damn. I want to take these things OFF!"

APRIL 5, 2021:  FIRST MINI RAMP SESSION

And today was my first mini ramp session in these. Here is what stood out:

(1) Board Feel was bad. I skate with Kingfoam Elite insoles. I feel like these give you even more board feel than the stock Vans insoles (maybe that's just me). Even with these in the Sk8-HIs, I almost felt like I was wearing cupsoles. After skating for a while, I started to adjust a bit, but it really just felt like I had cement shoes on.

(2) STIFF. For some reason I noticed this more on transition than street. They just felt really, really stiff.

(3) Sticky. Maybe the soles still need some breaking in, but my feet feel way more "stuck" to the board when adjusting feet in the flat bottom for next wall. This got kind of dicey with some of those micro-adjustments you have to make mid-trick/on the lip sometimes. The new Skate line has the same SickStick sole as the Rowan Pro, which is porobably why I'm noticing them being a bit gripper than the Pros were.

(4) Pressure points in toe box got real bad during run-outs. Bailing/running out of a trick on tranny really jams your foot into the toe of the shoe. The pressure points mentioned above started to get really sore after skating awhile because of this. Eventually I started knee-sliding (I wear knee pads on mini ramps) on bails that I would otherwise would have run-out of to avoid the pain of the run-outs.

(5) Get these off my feet! Again, when session was over, I wanted nothing more than to just take these shoes off.

None of this has ever happened to me with the Pros.

I was not too happy. If these do not improve with time, I would seriously consider trying the "regular" Vans. Or some other brand. And that is a horrifying thought. More updates to come as we move forward.

 

 

 

   

Ankle Update, Feb 2021

This below clip is a little outtake from last night's session. The angle iron was a tad sticky. Didn’t go fast enough/lean back far enough to compensate. Front end dipped down. I stepped-off onto the bad ankle...and down I go.

Almost two years after the initial broken bone, after two surgeries, after almost a year back on the board, and after significant recovery, my front ankle STILL betrays me on occasions...and sometimes even on very simple/low impact things such as this little 5-0 grind. I never know when it’s going to happen. 

Fortunately, this doesn’t occur nearly as often as before, and when it does, my ankle doesn’t hurt nearly as bad. Things like this used to be a session-ender. Now I just get up and keep going. That’s awesome. The pads continue to be a real life-saver when it does happen, because I usually go down straight to my knee (sound on to hear the plastic scrape). I don’t foresee loosing those anytime in the near future—it’s just not a game of Russian roulette I want to play with my kneecaps, because eventually I will loose in a serious way. It's just not worth it. 

 

The other major improvement is that I can now control my falls much better than before—I don’t go down nearly as hard. That’s also great news. So, despite occasional floundering, my ankle doing pretty good. 

Keep pushing...I certainly am. 

Thunder Hollow Lights & Team Hollows Review (Part II: Performance)

This is Part Two of my Thunder truck review. In Part One I covered a lot of factual, nerdy, tech stuff. Weight. Height. Length. Board fit/truck size(s). Etc. Here, in Part Two, we cover something much more subjective: truck performance. 

 

 

PART II: Performance

For starters, let me clarify that I am almost 47-years-old, and I have lingering injures from a broken leg. If you want a review on how Thunders perform on f/s feebles down kinked rails, switch backside flips into f/s krooked grinds on ledges, or heavy pool skating—you ain’t going to get that here. What you will get is an honest review from average old-guy skater who isn’t trying to sell you something, isn’t making money off reviews, or isn’t trying to use the review to flaunt my own skate “ability” (which is a aughable concept). That said, on we go…  

The first thing I did on the Thunders was to just carve around an empty parking lot and on some banks. This was to get an idea how the trucks turn, to get the bushing breaking in, and to tighten/loosen trucks to my liking. I ride my trucks on the tight end of “loose,” or on the loose end of “tight.” I am an “extra medium” kind of person. How did they perform?

Yeah. My initial reaction to carving around on Thunders was…bad. Real bad. They just didn’t turn. Like, at all. It felt like my trucks were super tighten-downed. I had the kingpin nut all the way to nylon (e.g. loose as you can get without fear of it falling off), and they still felt too tight. I decided to try switching out the stock bushings. I used to ride 96a Bones hard bushing in my Indys, which ride "softer" than most other 96a bushing. I tired Bones 91a bushing in my Indys, and those were way too soft for me (they also ride much "softer" than most other 91a bushings). Well, the 91a Bones bushing are what I put in the Thunders…and they still didn’t have a decent turn. This blew my mind. A bushing that was too soft in my Indys, was still too hard in Thunders? What the hell is that about??? How is that even possible? Is Thunder geometry THAT fucked up???? Again, I ride my trucks are on the tight end of loose, or the loose end of tight. This is to say that I do not ride really loose trucks...and Thunders were too tight, even for me. The Thunder stock bushings are horrible. I would never consider riding Thunders with stock bushings. NEVER. Horrible, horrible performance. I would probably quit skating if my only choice of truck was Thunders with stock bushings. Yes, I thought that were that bad. The 91a Bones did make them ride a bit better, but not by much. They still felt super tight, stiff, and gross. After carving around for awhile I skated a bit of flatland, and some curbs. Things didn't get any better. In fact, they got worse. I couldn't carve/turn into any tricks. If I didn't land perfectly, I had to step off my board or compensate with an immediate tick-tack. It felt so...rigid, and soulless. There was no joy. Fun had abandoned me, and left only a deep sorrow of carves that once were. Despair, destitution, and spiritual calamity. No children laugh here, and tears rain down to melt black snow. Ok, maybe I am being a little bit dramatic here. Just a little. But, yeah, these things were just soul-sucking.

They also had this other really weird characteristic, which is kind of hard to explain. Simply put, it didn’t feel like the front and the back truck ever acted in unison or harmony to produce a good feeling turn.  While my front or back truck might have felt a bit “loose” the board turn as a whole, always felt tight and stiff. It was like there was this weird discord going on...sort of like two musicians trying to play the same song, but the sheet music each had was in a different key. 

I should mention that while I could notice the Hollow Teams made my board feel a tad higher, I could not otherwise notice any real difference in performance between the Hollow Lights and Team Hollows. None. That 1mm height difference between them might cause real or imagined differences to some, but it didn’t even have placebo effect on me.  

I intended to skate these trucks for about a week on different types of terrain. That did not, and is not going to happen. I called it quits on this entire project after the second night of skating. Why? Because these trucks are not fun to ride. At all. In anyway. There was simply no point forcing myself to go any further with this review. The writing was on the wall in huge, bold, letters. At my age, if I’m not feeling something with my set-up, game over. Time is too precious to be wasting it on things that I’m not Stoked about. I was not Stoked on these trucks. Rather, they made me want to vomit in my own hair. I know there are some who feel that Thunders turn better than Indys. I also know that there are some in New York City who think they have a good view of the night stars and sky. Not only do those people have no idea what they are missing, they also have no idea what they are talking about.

Bottom Line: If you like trucks on the tighter side, Thunders are worth a look at. I, however, will never look at them again…and I didn’t even get into this problem with them! As much as I love DLX decks/wheels, and everything they do for skateboarding, Thunders are just not the truck for me. If they work for you, great. I dwell elsewhere. 

I am firm believer in the concept of, " One should revisit their assumptions from time to time, if only to prove that they still hold true." However, after enough tests with the same variable, one can safely say the assumptions ARE TRUE, at least in regard to that specific variable. I've given Thunders a number of tries over the years. I have now tested the "Indys > Thunder" assumption enough times to establish its unquestionable veracity, at least for me. 

Thunder Hollow Lights & Team Hollows Review (Part I: Techy, Nerdy, Stuff)

I hate NHS. I expressly state my bias up front. I would love to be rid of everything associated with that company, including Independent trucks. Despite that, I have ridden Indys for a very, very long time. Why? Because I have always found them to be a superior product (and I say that as someone who WANTS to be riding a different truck). So, that should say something about Indys. I mean they are the industry standard for a reason. I also believe that one should challenge their assumptions from time to time, if only to prove those assumptions still hold true.

So, with this background, and with hopes of riding myself of all NHS products, I decided to give Thunders another chance. This is my review of them. Since Indys are the “gold standard” (and what I normally ride), I will be making many comparisons to (my) Indys during this review. For reference, I ride Indy 144 titaniums on an 8.25” deck with a 14.38” wheelbase. And yes, I have tried Aces (an extensive review of them can be found here).

So, for this review I will be covering two different Thunder trucks at once.

-148 Polished Team Hollows (8.25”) (“TH”)
-148 Polished Hollow Lights (8.25”) (“HL”)

There is not much difference between these two trucks: minor differences in height and weight. Part II of this review (which coves actual performance), will suss out if the difference between them is substantive...or just good old-fashioned marketing. 

I have not ridden Thunders in a few years. I tried the Team versions when they first came out, and I was not a fan. However, it appears as if Thunder has made a few tweaks since then. Or have they? It’s actually kind of hard to know. Both trucks I am testing are purported to now be a bit taller than earlier generations…or maybe that is just due to Thunder’s weird truck designs and inconsistent messaging? Again, it’s still hard to actually know. Why? Well, are you ready to go down a maddening array of Thunder’s claimed truck specs that are all-over-the-map? Buckle up. We are about to descend in insanity.    

Let’s start here. This old ad stated that regular Thunders were 48.58mm tall, and that the Teams “were slightly 1mm taller,” coming in at 49.78mm (note the blue circle at the bottom of the image).

Today, things are bit different. The current Thunder web site states that Thunder 148 (8.25”) Lights trucks are 51mm, and the Teams are 52mm (see below).

Things then get even more confusing, because the height of Thunder trucks changes with their width. For instance, the 147 (8.0”) Lights are listed at 49mm Tall. The same trucks, only wider (e.g. the 161s),  are listed at 52mm. But, it’s about to get even worse. If you watch the little promo videos on Thunder’s web site for each respective truck style, they only list ONE height for each model. Nowhere on the current web site do the numbers “48.58” and “49.78” appear (as they did in that old Team ad above). Maybe I missed it, but I never recall seeing anything from Thunder that they had made their trucks taller. Maybe Thunders have always had a varied height-to-length-ratio, which was just poorly advertised/document by Thunder in the past. Whatever the case, it would be nice if Thunder put out some clear, and consistent information about their truck specs. And good luck looking for height guidance/specs at any on-line skate shop, because you will also find truck heights listed that I didn’t even mention above. It’s just total bedlam.
 

What about Indys? Independent trucks have no such confusion. Their standards are 55mm tall. Everyone agrees on that. Their forged trucks are 53.5mm tall. Everyone also agrees on that, too. Indy height does not change with width. Their new mids are 52mm tall (but those also appear to have a horrible design, and should be avoided at all costs. Nice job, Indy. You managed to make a heavier truck, with less kingpin clearance, a stickier kingpin for smith/feeble grinds, and with more initial slip-out. Sounds like the worst Indy ever made. I'm not going near them.).  


So, before I even get to Thunder’s performance aspects, I am going to cover a lot of nuanced, nerdy, spec-tech stuff. You've been warned. I am sure some people think this level of scrutiny is absolutely inane and absurd. Others thrive on it. If you want to just skip straight to the performance aspects, head over to Part II (which can be found here). All of the measurements below are my own. If there is a reason to cite a manufacture claimed measurement, I will expressly state that. Just for comparison, I threw in specs on my Indys (144 titaniums), and Ace 44s, too.

Weight (individual truck):
HL: 322g (11.36oz)
TH: 335g (11.75oz)
Indy Titanium: 333g (11.81oz)*
Ace: 395g (13.86oz)

*Manufacture claim is 335g. When I weighed a new set, they came in at 333g. My scale is probably a bit off. That said, I weighed all of these trucks on the same scale (so there was a consistent point of reference between/among all of them).

Height (measured to center of axle):
HL: 51mm
TH: 52mm
Indy: 53.5mm
Ace: 52mm

Wheelbase:
Measured center-of-axle to center-of-axle. This is will never an EXACT measurement because bushings, pivot cup, etc. will never allow the axles to sit perfectly flat/balanced.

HL: 17.62”
TH: 17.62”
+3.25*

*My deck wheelbase is 14.38”. So 17.62” minus 14.39” equals 3.24” (rounded to 3.25”). Thus, Thunders will lengthen any deck’s wheelbase by +3.25”. Knowing this number helps with compare wheelbases among truck brands.

Indy: 

17.5” (axle to axle on a 14.38” deck)
+3.1

Ace:

17.25” (axle to axle on a 14.38” deck)
+2.8

Kingpin Clearance:

for this I just eyeballed it from top of kingpin to top of the hanger.
HL: 10mm
TH: 10mm
Indy: 9mm
Ace: 8mm

Axle Length (total):
HL, TH, and Indy: 8.25”
Ace: 8.38”

Axle Length (individual): 

For this, I measured the length of the axle that sticks out from the hanger.

HL: 32mm

TH: 32mm

Indy: 32mm
Ace: 35mm

Hanger Length:
HL: 5.62”

TH: 5.62”

Indy: 5.62”
Ace: 5.56”

Bushings:

Comment on Durometer: While the Thunder web site does not state what durometer the polished Thunders come stock with, everywhere else that stock bushing durometer is listed, it is listed as 90a. So, I will assume my Thunders also came stock with 90s bushings. If you want to use aftermarket Thunder bushings, they come in 90a, 94a, 97a, and 100a. All of these come only in a conical shape. By comparison, Independent aftermarket bushings are available in 78a, 88a, 90a, 92a, 94a, and 96a. These are all available in both conical and standard cylinder shapes. The height of bushing is important for compatibility with non-manufacture after-market bushings

Bushing Height, Hardness, & Shape:

HL & TH: 

Top: 10mm

Bottom: 14mm

Stacked with washers: 27mm

Hardness: 90a

Shape: Conical/tapered

Indy:

Top: 10mm

Bottom: 13mm

Stacked with washers: 27mm

Hardness: 90a

Shape: Cylindrical/straight  

Ace:

Top: 12mm (91a)

Bottom: 14mm (86a)

Stacked with washers: 27mm

Shape: Cylindrical/straight  

Baseplate Design: Thunders are notorious for this “problem.” No other truck has this issue, only Thunder does. I’ll cover this more in Part II on truck performance. 

Appearance: Everything above is factual information. Weight. Height. Lengths. Etc. Now we move to something more subjecting, appearance. I have mixed feelings about the way Thunders look. I don’t hate them (I despise how Aces look). I don’t love them (I love the way Indys look). They definitely look more svelte than Indy. Thunders almost, almost, start to look like “Wal-Mart” trucks, but don’t totally cross over into Toy Store Land appearance (many have made that claim about Thunders). I love the way Thunders with a black baseplate and silver/gunmetal hangers look. Thunder is constantly putting out different truck color combinations. Some of them look really cheesy, IMHO.


Mall Grab: I saved the most important for last. I know everyone is dying to know…but how are Thunders for Mall Grabs? I’m sorry, kids. Simply put, Thunders are just a lesser Mall Grab. Due to Thunder’s stripped down, svelte design, they just don’t give your hand that much to hold on to. Grabbing your Thunders as you waltz into the Food Court, or Zummies…it just feels as if you are daintily holding a fragile bouquet of small, weak, undernourished aluminum flowers. If the jocks by the Burger King kiosk start frontin’ on you, it just doesn’t seem like you have any real heft to fight them off with. Without question, Indys are the best truck for a good, satisfying Mall Grab. “Grab the Best, Fuck the Rest”…or something macho tough-guy like that.   

Conclusion

So, there you have it. A pretty lengthy review of Thunder trucks, before I have even put them on my board and skated them! On paper, four things stand out to me. First, is the longer wheelbase. Second, is the lowered height (esp. with the Hollow Lights). Third, is the notorious baseplate issue with nose/tail slides. Last, the Team Hollows weigh the same as my Indys (surprising), and the Hollow Lights are a tad lighter.  I am eager to see how all this actually plays out when I start skating them. How much of these differences is marketing, and how much will I actually notice? Time will tell. Part II of this review will adress actual performance vs. marketing gimmick. Note however, that Part II has not been posted yet. I will link it here as soon as it is goes live. Until then, happy skating.

Diminish, Fade, and Wither: The Inspiring Delcline of Tony Hawk

I am an old, broken, skateboarder. My balance is not what it once was. I don’t react as fast as I used to. I don’t heal as quickly as before. Every year skateboarding becomes harder. Every year I become more susceptible to injury. I like my pads a hell of a lot more than I used to. These are hard facts of biology, time, age, and life.

Recently Tony Hawk posted about his recent struggles doing a 720. A trick he invented long ago. He said he could not spin them as fast anymore. He said previous attempts ended badly and did not inspire confidence. He said they were much harder now. He battled it for awhile, pulled one, and said he may never do it again. Albeit vastly different scales, these battles are ones many of us already know quite well. I certainly do. They are also battles EVERY skateboarder WILL know, provided they stick with it long enough. There is no escape.

It’s not often someone in skateboarding, especially someone at Hawk’s level, openly talks about (and shows) the impact of aging. It’s almost unimaginable to hear TONY HAWK talk about battles with CONFIDENCE. Hearing and seeing his own battles with declining skill and ability certainly make our own battles with the same that much more universal and...humanizing.

Much respect for making that 720, Tony. But even more respect for the honest vulnerability. Every session is a gift. It won’t last forever...and even Tony Hawk knows that.

We diminish. We fade. We wither. And that, at least to me, is a gift. The impermanence of it all is what makes it so special. It’s what makes it so hard to take anything for granted, and what reveals how profound the simple really is (and I’m not talking about just skateboarding here). As I knowingly roll into my own twilight, I do so with a gratitude brighter than a thousand Suns.

Hawk, battling to land a 720, one last time.